Study on the nature of a variable geometry - daphné angles anaïs feyeux Étienne tassin
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Study
on the
nature
of a
variable
geometry
Daphné Angles
Anaïs Feyeux
Étienne TassinWhat is democracy? At this time of globali-
zation, how is it perceived by our modern
societies and by the media? In a world where
the image is more of a conveyor of ideology,
we can question ourselves about the role and
the meaning of documentary photography.
What does it show? What does it say?
A journalist, a philosopher and an art historian Daphné Angles, Picture Editor/Bureau Man-
gathered around those pictures, about the way ager at The New York Times Paris.
we perceive and comprehend politics through Anaïs Feyeux, Art Historian specializing in
the medium of the image. Photography.
Étienne Tassin, Professor of Political Philos-
ophy, University of Paris Diderot.
Translated by Lisa Brewster.Daphné Angles: When I look at Baptiste Giroudon’s photographs, many questions spring to
mind as these images do not demonstrate something, but rather suggest some possible
IV reflections about a reality that he has chosen to show. These images express a truth V
that he sought during his travels or when editing his work. His guiding thread and the
path followed by his thinking are revealed by the title chosen for the book, by the short
text used as an introduction of French philosopher Étienne Vacherot, who wrote a lot
about democracy, and by the selection of images. At the same time, the reader enjoys a
great freedom of interpretation and is given the possibility to grasp in their own way the
meaning of democracy today. I appreciate the fact that the book opens, which I think is
very logical, in Athens where the democracy that animates us today was born, and then
leads us through contemporary events illustrating how we can sometimes give up on
that idea of democracy, how we are still looking for it in the midst of social and political
upheavals. The photographer encourages us to think about what democracy is on a
national level as well as internationally. As an American, I am particularly interested in
the issue of the intervention of one country, supposedly to help, in the political system
of another in order to impose an idea, a foreign political system, that is to say, ours. This
system is agreed upon based on the fact that, apparently, democratic countries do not Square, Triangle, Circle, Rectangle. Print on multiple paper. 200x296cm
engage in war with each other, or very rarely. Therefore, the question is this: can we, in
the name of peace and democracy, meddle in another people’s democracy?
D. A.: This democracy is multifaceted. For example, in one picture we can see the citizens
Étienne Tassin: To follow up on those comments, and particularly on the subject of that first demonstrating in Athens, a democratic country, in order to bring a nonetheless elected
image of Athens, it is worth remembering that everything regarding democracy started government. They gave power to a government supposed to act in their interests, but
there in the 5th century BC. Yet it is not the Agora, the Pnyx hill or any of those founding this government’s decisions are taken in an international and European system which
institutions of democracy that is presented to us, but the temple of Olympian Zeus, a impedes its freedom of choice. We could say it is a “Russian Doll” democracy, multilayered.
place of prayer, of liturgy. This book opens on an obvious discrepancy: on one side we
are reminded that everything began in Athens, and on the other side, we are invited to É. T.: Therefore, the question is: where is democracy today? Is it an institutional system regulating
look further, away from politics and toward religion. The issue of religion surreptitiously the States and the European Union while imposing binding economic standards? The
emerges in a number of photos, as if it was both solicited by and in tension with the issue citizens are protesting in the streets of Athens because their kratos has been taken away
of democracy. We are then immediately struck by another discrepancy: the concept of from them: what is going on here is exactly the opposite of what was invented 2500 years
democracy in Athens calls for the notion of demos, the people, who are entrusted with ago in Ancient Greece. We could say that it is still a democratic system, in its abstract
the kratos, the responsibility to exercise the political power. It also calls for the notion of definition and on a supranational scale, but it is totally disconnected from the places from
equality, which is a prerequisite for the exercise of this power by the citizens. But what which stemmed the political principles of democracy. What is particularly disconcerting
does puzzle me, and made me feel skeptical at first, is the absence of the people in those to me is the absence of those political places of strong symbolic value, aside from the
images. The people are missing, except in two of the pictures, that is the image shot in pictures of the Athenian street and of the Tahrir Square, in Cairo.
Place Tahrir, and the one shot in an Athens street. But the people are just a great blurry This photographic work suggests that there would be different ways of comprehending
crowd, shot from so far away that you cannot perceive any active or seditious dimension. democracy. It is first and foremost a system of government in which the citizens have
Instead, we are presented with pictures of empty places, of vast and deserted geometric the right and the opportunity to rise against their rulers, even though they have elected
areas, which is interrogating: what is a democracy with just a shadow of its people or them, which is exactly what the Greeks are doing when subjected to the European
even completely without it? We cannot help but wonder why the photographer chose to Union imperatives. It is also a political regime insuring a multi-party system along with
show geometrical abstractions, deserted and geometrically ordered places, rather than the freedom of speech and the respect of individual rights guaranteed by a constitution.
people taking part in the democracy through debate, strike, protesting, voting and so This is the idea of democracy that we want to export to Iran, to Iraq… But this conception
on. We are confronted by a democracy on an international scale without its people. It is of democracy is conveyed through military means, as is suggested by some pictures.
a reality we are not used to in Europe where our societies are animated by politics. The It is a democracy imposed in an anti-democratic fashion, and it is, in consequence,
people have literally disappeared and in its place we find soldiers or isolated individuals contradicted by the same people who wish to make a business out if it.
who do not immediately conjure up the idea of democracy. This almost total absence of D. A.: Yes, we are at this point more in what we could call an “economic democracy”.
a democratically active people, associated with the issue of religion that is raised from
the beginning, and the theme of war which will soon be introduced, concur to present a É. T.: I don’t know if that would be the exact term… Let’s remember that liberal societies are
certain image of democracy: one that seems to be reduced to wars of conquest and export not necessarily democratic just because they are liberal. Are those images showing us
in a desert environment, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya… What democracy are we talking the downward slide of liberal societies or are they confronting us with something that
about here? Places deserted by the citizens? Territories said to be threatened by Islam? would be more about the essence of the democratic experience?Anaïs Feyeux: As an art historian, what does strike me is the illustration of this dichotomy between mean for someone like this Afghan worker to be suddenly submerged into a foreign
a people rising up, and a regime and its institutions. This duality has been present since culture? What makes the strength of this picture is that we can detect the discrepancy
VI the French Revolution, and was illustrated in the iconography of the time which featured between two cultures. VII
idealized architectural figures with geometric lines from the beginning of the French
Revolution, even before the uprising of the French people. These geometric figures of an A. F.: In a historical point of view, the idea of war in the democratic space has always been
ideal world form the basis of a new society to come. This ideal organization of democracy present. Athens was constantly at war, there were the Revolutionary Wars during the
that was devised under the Ancient Régime, this vision of a perfect and ordered world is French Revolution and then the Napoleonic wars. The democratic space is not one at
disrupted by the citizens’ insurrection. Jean Starobinski explains that those utopian images peace. To say the contrary would be a lie, it would be a denial. The history of the United
of democracy, particularly in architecture with this perfect geometry of Boullée or Ledoux, States has been plagued with wars, so has the history of France.
were necessary to the Ancient Régime when democracy didn’t exist yet, but that when D. A.: I agree but we also have to acknowledge the fact that democracies are seldom at war
the French Revolution began, those illustrations of an ideal world immediately became with each other. Democracies mostly declare war against countries that do not share
outdated. The French Revolution has devised little to no utopian architectural projects, they the same political system. We can say that to declare war in the name of an idea is un-
date from before the birth of a democratic society in France. For that reason, I don’t see justified, and that statistically, democratic societies tend to be at peace with each other.
any definitive division between the people and the political institutions. For me, this book
is underlining the coexistence of a fantasized and idealized vision of democracy dating É. T.: Kant defended the ancient idea that we need republics if we want a world at peace. He
from a pre-democratic period, and the more common and prosaic reality of democracy. thought that only monarchies and despotic regimes were belligerent. However, when
looking at the history of the 20th century, we can see that it is far from being true: the
D. A.: Under Hitler and Mussolini, the lines of architecture were symmetrical and ruled by a two World Wars left terrible imprints on the history of humanity and societies that are
neoclassical geometry, which is the opposite of the disorder that stems from democracy. said to be democratic are to be held responsible. The statement “Democracies do not
É. T.: It is true that an implicit geometry is at the heart of the shapes of democracy. During the engage in wars with each other” only became true after WWII, at least on the European
5th century BC, three geometrical figures will predominate: the Agora Square is a rect- continent, as a result of the creation of the European Union. It was the starting point of
angle measuring more or less 330 feet long and 230 feet wide (100 by 70 meters), and a common journey for democratic countries which did not want to experience war again,
it is where the democratic dialogue will take place. Then there is the hemicycle, in the and thus implemented an institutional framework designed to insure peace between the
amphitheater of the Pnyx where the “demos” can take control of the “kratos”. And finally, member states. But it didn’t prevent the Bosnian War between 1992 and 1995. And it
the figure of the circle is at the heart of the collective vision of democratic equality, as is in the name of democracy that the United States engages in wars around the globe,
demonstrated by Pierre Lévèque, Pierre Vidal-Naquet or Jean-Pierre Vernant. The circle defending and spreading the standards and rules that go with the American vision of
is the geometrical figure whose boundary consists of points, all of them equidistant from what western society is supposed to be. As a consequence, fundamentally alien cultural
the centre. It symbolizes the equality between citizens who share an equal relationship traditions are imposed on people, and this is exactly what the picture is about: the man
to the power. We can also find those geometrical figures in architecture, urban spaces, is having lunch on the American flag.
as well as in the pictorial illustrations of a people walking on the path of democracy. In D. A.: Could some answers be found in the model of society that is offered in Christiana,
Baptiste Giroudon’s pictures, geometrical figures seem to be disconnected from those Denmark? That is, a self-governing and libertarian society that would play the role of a
supposed to populate them, the citizens. Instead, we can find a few soldiers, a cook, a safety valve for democracy.
masked man, some tourists and finally the empty hemicycle. We can only wonder: are
those areas empty because the people are about to arrive or are they already gone? Or É. T.: That was an answer in the seventies. This image is interesting because instead of pic-
maybe there are no people left at all? turing the heart of the city of Christiana which necessarily displays some visible traces
of a democratic experience of more than forty years, we can see a lake, houses in the
D. A.: Photography is, for me, a medium rather than a science. It is an art, an imperfect one. distance, a winter atmosphere… everything but how we could expect the idea of de-
The portrait was the ultimate goal in a certain classical trend of photography. Even mocracy to be represented. But finally, throughout the whole book, the pictures mostly
though it is not the case here, Baptiste indirectly talks of all of us in his pictures. It tell us: “You are looking to something which has to do with democracy”, but what is it?
is not necessary to really see, to make out characters, as each picture suggests a We constantly have to reconstruct, reflect and ponder…
reality while following a strongly established common thread. When Baptiste shows
us a soldier resting after a battle, we can imagine what is going on in his head, and A. F.: I agree, but those characters that we were talking about a little earlier are actors in the
even if we can perceive emotion, the geometry of the photo allows us to move on to democratic process. It is as if the soldier, because of his position as a soldier, should
other pictures in a visually logical manner. The picture directs our gaze and leads us leave the circle of democracy. To take his picture is to hand him back his role as a par-
to reflect on those recurring figures. As we follow this path, we reevaluate our society ticipant in democracy. The image of that isolated place in Denmark, almost out of time
and the world we live in, which we build every day. In “The Afghan Worker” picture, we and abandoned, also gives a much more prosaic illustration of what democracy is in the
can see a man in a cafeteria in Afghanistan, but he could just as well be in the United world we live in today.
States. This image illustrates the issue of military intervention in another country, and
É. T.: When we go through the book we can’t help but be struck by an unusual and recurring
of the so-called right to impose on others a radically different culture, a political system
question: by showing us these pictures, what has the photographer chosen not to show?
which works for us, even if it is and always will be flawed in some way. What does itWe could say that what is not featured is what is left out of the frame, but in reality, what from far away, the photographer is standing aside of the actual events. It is absolutely
is not shown are the expected protests, social unrests or parliamentary sessions… not representative of usual press photography. We would expect him to be shooting
VIII Maybe it is the true strength of this photo series; the reader is thrown off balance. We pictures at the heart of the demonstration, in order to get close-up portraits capturing IX
are expecting something and we are confronted by something else, thus we question faces and expressions. On the contrary, this is a very organized picture, shot from a
ourselves on what we see and wonder about what we do not see. distance. We cannot make out who are these people. Is it a demonstration in favor or
against democracy? The absence of any kind of clues in the picture is the antithesis of
D. A.: We could also say that if democracy’s picture was taken at close range, we would lack press photography.
perspective. But the perspective is so present in this book that we rise above the upheavals
of History - which are suggested by the places and characters in this book - that there D. A.: It is still, nonetheless, a documentary photography. Baptiste is picturing reality, while
are many angles of inquiry. This photo features a really sad-looking Christiana which keeping some distance, which suggests a multiplicity of interpretations rather than
looks like a small and almost forgotten haven of democracy. telling us what we should think. The American photographer Garry Winogrand used to
say that “Photographs are also about how what is photographed is changed by being
A. F.: I don’t see the book in that light. The first pictures introduce the places of democracy, and photographed”. All of those photos question the way we look at things. What is even
they are empty. Then we have five or six images, the one taken in Calais or those shot more enthralling is that the distance kept between the photographer and its subject is
in Afghanistan and Libya, where we can see architectures either created or destroyed remarkably maintained throughout the book.
by democracy. We can find more portraits in the following pictures. Which is to say that a
greater role is given to humans in the second part of the book: participants in democracy É. T.: The images of this book seem to be the result of a process of abstraction as well as a
are featured individually when we were expecting crowds. Such crowds are pictured process of aestheticization. We could draw a parallel between this photography work and
in only two images. It is striking because democracy stems from the mythology of a the opening text of Etienne Vacherot. The philosopher establishes the distinction between
common destiny born out of a collective will, where we are never alone. Then, towards truth and reality, between geometrical shapes and tangible objects, and we could interpret
the end of the book, a sort of tourism of democracy - slightly voyeuristic - seems to be those images as an attempt to draw, from a concrete, tangible and visible reality with its
the conclusion of the story. I don’t think we ever get far from the human side of things. factual dimension, an abstract sketch, almost mathematical, of what could be the essence
An example would be that image of Calais where a person is lost in the landscape but of democracy. The distance that is kept between the image and the subject of the pictures
absolutely present nonetheless. creates a gap and allows us to catch a glimpse of another point of view, a more reflective
one, if I might say. But taking this step back induces a greater abstraction, it also leads
D. A.: Baptiste always maintains the distance in his pictures, which are like an overview of what us to question ourselves, and can even be disconcerting. We are, so to speak, kept at a
is going on in the world: the human is there but powerless when confronted with the distance from the affects or emotions that could arise from witnessing those types of events
unfolding world events. He is just a tiny piece of that international jigsaw puzzle, alone or political scenes. When looking at these pictures, you end up reflecting more upon your-
before the great clock of time and its ineluctable oblivion. Democracy has been forgotten, self. The position of the photographer, imposing a distance, is really coherent with what is
it is not a national ideal anymore but an international concept. Soldiers are thrown on the shown. For example, there is this empty polling station watched over by a little policeman
battlefield in the name of that concept. We, as humans, have been dispossessed of an looking embarrassed, and we cannot say that we see anything. And there is this picture of
ideal that can only survive in small communities like the one in Christiana. Our power to an Afghan man who is going to vote, all alone in front of a mosque. Something incredible is
act has been taken away from us. going on here: the people, in their physical reality, are absent and so are the voters. There
This book is not a press photography work, but to turn to this subject, I would like to is only this man and this empty polling station. And from that point the questions just flow:
say that photography has still a role to play in journalism. Photography, by opening new Is it a polling station? What is the point of being elected or elector? Where are the others?
perspectives, allowing for diverse opinions to be expressed and for multiple realities to If this distance keeps us away from a conventional reality, it also brings us closer to another
be revealed, is an essential tool for journalism. The kind of photojournalism that Baptiste reality which would be more intellectual, private and reflective. What is quite beautiful is that
practices professionally does give coverage to conflicts and events. It is a great medium to the geometry of things is revealed, reflecting the geometry of the mind. For a philosopher,
expose and reveal; it is an answer to the need of information that is intrinsic to the press. this point of view is more interesting than the events in themselves.
A. F.: But very few of the pictures of this book have been published in the press, and for that A. F.: In the history of painting, there have always been two schools of thought: the colorists and
reason I feel a stronger link to a certain trend of documentaries from the end of the the lovers of drawing, of lines. The former are more about emotions and the latter favor
eighties and the beginning of the nineties. Those images didn’t go down the path of a intellectual reflections. With Baptiste’s choice to highlight a geometrical perspective, like
mere criticism of the media, but would rather show that a different way of taking pictures in this picture of Guantanamo, we are reminded of a really important pictorial tradition:
of political events was possible. Theatres of war like the Arab Spring revolutions, the the advocates of geometry and pure drawing have a certain expectation regarding the
events in Afghanistan or in Libya are also addressed differently in Baptiste’s work. The necessity of a rigorous mind, incompatible with the emotionalism brought about by colors.
traditional practice of press reporting is abandoned in favor of an approach that would Baptiste’s pictures are indeed light-colored.
be closer to the work of photographer Luc Delahaye for example. A press photographer,
giving coverage to the same kind of events, would certainly go for the emotional side of É. T.: We can notice an intentional choice to level out the pictures in this series. But one picture
things in order to get an easily accessible and sometimes compassionate picture. This stands out in a striking fashion: the displaced persons camp in Syria. It is a warm-toned
picture of the Tahrir Square is symptomatic of Baptiste’s approach: it is a picture taken picture while the others are more cool-colored, like the one taken in Christiana forexample. We can perceive a will to attenuate the potential effects produced by colors
(eg. Guantanamo), the same way a painter would emphasize halftones rather than the
X warmth of colors. There is an open predilection for pastel tones, which also gives a note XI
of sadness. It is neither the light of dawn nor the light of dusk - neither the beginning nor
the end of democracy?
D. A.: The gaze, along with the thought, travels through the pages of the book and the pictures,
we can stop for however long we want, but it is also possible to read the book backwards,
from the end to the beginning, with the same impression all along: the photographic
approach is the only important thing here, it is what attracts our attention. The captions
are very discreet, they let our mind wander freely. Those images prompt us to reconsider
the way we look in general.
A. F.: Two captions are really different from the others: “The day Bin Laden died”. It is more
emotional than the others, which are quite factual. Baptiste could have chosen to write
the date. It is up to us if we remember or not on which day Bin Laden died.
D. A.: These are really ambiguous captions. Square, Rectangle, Circle, Globe. Print on multiple paper. 200x295cm
É. T.: It is as provocative as to show a Christian cross at Ground Zero on the day Bin Laden
was eliminated. How can you show things differently by not taking the expected picture, the one in which
D. A.: Once again, from my point of view, the photographer invites us to mobilize our own capac- the meaning is obvious at first glance to everybody? How to take a step aside in order
ities of thought, it is not a book that expresses opinions, it is a book that asks questions. to uncover the hidden meaning and make it real and understandable?
A. F.: Baptiste is from that generation of documentary photographers who built themselves A. F.: The difference between Baptiste’s generation and the previous one is that the latter built
around 9/11. World War II or the Spanish war, each gave birth to a generation of pho- themselves around war while Baptiste’s generation was founded on 9/11, an event that
tojournalists. Throughout the history of photojournalism, some events united whole happened very quickly and whose iconography was mainly supplied by amateurs. Photo-
generations. Luc Delahaye has a lot to say about his generation of photographers born journalists were lost in the crowd of photographers who were flooding the streets of New
during the Bosnian War. York on that day. The situation is very different from World War II or the Spanish War.
The exhibition titled Here is New York which took place the following year, in 2002, was
D. A.: Let’s not forget about Vietnam, a lot earlier! a mix of pictures taken by amateurs and by professional photographers. Photojournalists
did lose their specificity, lost in the proliferation of images we are subjected to every day,
A. F.: Some historical events will impact on a whole generation and will color their future work. they are just image manufacturers among others.
D. A.: What is particularly interesting is that those events which shaped those generations of É. T.: Maybe this series of photos could be considered as a deviation from the agreed on and
photojournalists also gave birth to the image of the photojournalist as a hero. They are conventional representations produced by our democratic society? Maybe this could be a
considered as the kings of photojournalism, because they “did Bosnia, then Chechnya deliberate critical breach from the majority of the work from documentary photographers,
and the Arab Spring”. New generations are really interested in those federating political and with the majority of images of conflict? We can perceive a deliberate attempt to take
events. Young photographers are looking for something, they assign themselves a some distance with them in order to be able to reflect on what is shown on those other
mission. When they come back home, they question themselves about the purpose pictures, in the context of an always more massive, ordinary and anonymous production
behind all this: what does it mean for them and for others, can they have an influence of images, especially since it is now possible to take pictures with a cell phone.
over events by taking pictures?
And it is true that for each conflict there has been a picture which did have an impact A. F.: Indeed, some very striking pictures were taken by amateurs during 9/11. This attack was
on the course of the events, or at least left a permanent imprint in people’s minds. I am the first to be documented so vividly by amateurs. With the Arab Spring, amateur pic-
talking about the photo of the Vietnamese “Napalm girl”, or more recently about those tures dominated the photographic scene, metamorphosing visual language. Paul Virilio
amateur pictures taken by soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison, which backfired on their authors. explained that today, when someone takes a picture and posts it on social networks, it
Those pictures were absolutely earth-shaking. A photojournalist who would have docu- is thought of as an act of democracy. Nowadays, to take action for democracy would be
mented all those events could wonder if there is more to it, ultimately, than the adrenaline to take a picture which would testify to the state of democracy, to the level of respect
rush when he puts himself in danger, about what will be left of it? However, in this project, for it. The medium of photography was, right from the start, considered as a democratic
Baptiste decided to distance himself from what is photographed in order to question his one. Everybody could take pictures, its language was easily understandable, and the
role as a photographer. What can you do when you are interested in a certain reality hierarchy among arts dear to painting, disappeared. Baptiste has chosen that medium
and you want to show it? on purpose as it is considered today as a major democratic tool.D. A.: We talk today about citizen journalism. It is a way of taking back the control of our role cially the one showing a bus on the museum parking lot, suggests a general approach to
as active citizens through the medium of a photography that can be displayed on the democracy like it was a museum artifact. We think that democracy is an idealistic concept
XII internet. It became a major and essential tool in reporting, but it doesn’t mean that pho- from another time, born out of a different human experience. The canonical forms of XIII
tojournalism isn’t still necessary. Professional photojournalism allows us to have access democracy would belong to the museums, not to a contemporary life experience. We are
to the sources, and gives us the opportunity to check in which conditions the photo was confronted, at the end of the series, to the extremely disturbing association of an Athenian
taken, giving legitimacy to the photographed events. temple and an aerial shot of the Buchenwald concentration camp, which could suggest
that democracy was an old dream, abandoned a long time ago. We can contemplate its
É. T.: Yes, but this is a book, not a news publication. It is not representative of Baptiste’s usual remnants and its founding principles in museums. A systematic and industrial experience
work as a press photojournalist, when he is taking pictures in order to catch the events of death, the experience of the death camps, would have taken its place and those camps
as they happen. His approach here is a posteriori, he reassembles the events from a would have been turned into museums themselves. It is worrying to consider that the
distance. He acts as painter, critic and we could even say philosopher because of the Athenian birthplaces of democracy, as well as Buchenwald – where democracy met its
questioning approach. He also takes some distance with photojournalism work in general death, which saw the implementation of a systematization of death – are now thought
as his reader is encouraged to ponder, to feel concern. I don’t know which kind of pictures of as museums, as places where the memory of a certain past is celebrated. Could we
he takes when he is reporting, but obviously, this is not this type of photo. possibly perceive, in that final succession of two images, a terrible disavowal of the faith
D. A.: I have to say that some of his pictures could absolutely be published in the New York in democracy: the couple of stooped old tourists, carrying a pink bag, the man making
Times to illustrate an article. But Baptiste’s approach is one step ahead, he is one step what looks like a disappointed gesture while standing on the birthplace of Athenian
aside from any type of images produced in a context of documentary photography. democracy, associated with the abstract and geometrical map of Buchenwald? I detect
what could be sadness in that sequence of images.
É. T.: It is important to notice how much attention has been brought to the images composition,
to the rhythm, to the selection of pictures which creates a sequence inviting us to con- A. F.: To follow up on those two pictures of Athens and Buchenwald, we can say that those two
siderer this work as a whole and not just as individual images. episodes were some of the most collectively reconstructed of the history of humanity. It
is wrong to think that the liberation of the concentration camps brought back democracy
A. F.: We can also notice how groups of people are photographed from a distance that empha- to Germany. When the Allies liberated the camps, the idea was not to give back any
sizes an insect-like swarming. There is an obvious will to blur facial expressions. The power to the German people, but to leave Germany to lie fallow. It is a myth to think that
unity of places is also completely shattered: we go from Athens, a city that will reappear democracy was restored in Germany as soon as the camps were shut down. The process
several times in the book, to Buchenwald, to Afganisthan… took several years. It is the same with the mythology of a democratic Athens. The end
of the book reflects on those two moments: the birth of democracy in Ancient Greece
D. A.: There is no narrative either.
and its resurgence in Germany after World War II. In both cases it can be considered as
A. F.: Nor any chronology. myth rather than historical reality.
D. A.: This last picture of Greece, at the end of the book, remains quite enigmatic to me. É. T.: We can witness today, the birth of some kind of folklore around the Agora in Athens and
the extermination camps, they became features of the tourism industry.
É. T.: Its meaning could stem from its association with the following picture, the one of Buchen-
wald concentration camp. The page layout puts them face to face which suggests that A. F.: At the end of the day, we are ultimately extremely disappointed.
we are supposed to look at them together.
D. A.: This outlook on contemporary societies is rather lucid and disillusioned. To end up on the
A. F.: When I look at the Cairo picture with this kind of pit in the foreground, a mass grave Buchenwald picture, it is worthy to note that it is the only one that Baptiste didn’t take.
comes to my mind. The map is in the museum of the Buchenwald camp. By taking the picture from a very
frontal position, he amplified the lines which divide it in four. He is also took a step back
D. A.: For me, its meaning would be more about the hidden side of things, what happens un- by taking a picture taken by someone else. To do this is perfectly coherent with his views
derneath the surface. I very much like the composition of this photo taken in Cairo, at the and his photographic approach.
end of the book, with this ground subsidence on the foreground. This ground left open is
like an intrinsic reality, with the pyramids in the background. The fact that one of the last É. T.: Let’s not forget that the succession of pictures begins with a view from above, shot from
pictures takes us back to Greece, the birth place of democracy, could be understood as a the Parthenon, which dominates the city of Athens. The book opens with Athens and
way for Baptiste to lead the reader to the conclusion that he has to leave the democratic closes on the picture of the concentration camp of Buchenwald. But before and after
context, that he has to get out. I have to admit that I don’t understand this picture. those two pictures, like framing the book, we can find two engravings from a 17th century
book, featuring geometrical figures. These engravings are an invitation for the reader to
A. F.: The next to last photo pictures mass tourism in Greece. Nowadays the birthplaces of the travel with the images of the book. One of them is a boat going away ; the other picture
concept of democracy are “places to visit”. represents a ruin, devoid of any human presence, which conjures up the atmosphere of
É. T.: The fact that the pictures of Athens are recurring on three occasions could be interpreted the Afghan schoolchildren photo. Could this framing indicate a link between the pathetic
as a kind of nostalgia for a bygone time. In the same way, the photo of Buchenwald, espe- ambition to export a distorted democracy around the world by whatever means, and the
race toward the destruction of humanity which has lead to the death camps?Qu’est-ce que la démocratie ? À l’heure de la
mondialisation, comment est-elle désormais
appréhendée par nos sociétés modernes,
perçue par les médias ? Dans un monde où
l’image s’impose comme marqueur idéologique
se pose la question du sens et du rôle de la
photographie documentaire. Que donne-t-elle
à voir ? Que dit-elle ?
Autour de ces images, une journaliste, un Daphné Angles, responsable du bureau du
philosophe et une historienne de l’art débattent New York Times, à Paris
de notre approche et de notre compréhension Anaïs Feyeux, historienne de l’art spécialiste
du politique à travers l’image. de la photographie
Étienne Tassin, professeur de philosophie
Square, Triangle, Circle, Globe, Rectangle. Print on multiple paper. 200x293cm politique à l’Université Paris DiderotDaphné Angles : Lorsque je regarde ces photographies de Baptiste Giroudon, de nombreuses
interrogations me viennent à l’esprit : ces images ne démontrent pas quelque chose,
XVI mais elles suggèrent des pistes de réflexion sur une réalité que Baptiste a choisi de XVII
montrer. Elles disent une vérité ; une vérité qu’il cherche lors de ses voyages ou lors-
qu’il fait son editing. Le choix du titre de son ouvrage, le fait de l’ouvrir sur un court
texte du philosophe Étienne Vacherot, qui a beaucoup écrit sur la démocratie, et enfin
la sélection d’images présentées ici, nous indique son fil directeur, le cheminement
de sa pensée, tout en nous laissant une grande liberté d’interprétation afin que nous
puissions appréhender à notre façon ce qu’est la démocratie aujourd’hui. J’aime le fait
qu’il ouvre cette sélection à Athènes, ce qui, personnellement, me semble logique, car
c’est le berceau de la forme de démocratie qui nous anime aujourd’hui. Il nous mène
ensuite à travers des événements contemporains, nous montrant comment on renonce
parfois à cette idée de la démocratie, comment on la cherche encore, pris dans des
soubresauts sociaux et politiques. Ici, le photographe nous pousse à réfléchir à ce que
signifie la démocratie dans un pays, mais également sur un plan plus international.
En tant qu’Américaine, je m’intéresse particulièrement au principe de l’intervention, au
Square, Triangle, Circle, Globe, Rectangle. Print on multiple paper. 200x294cm
nom de la démocratie, d’un pays dans un autre dans le but d’imposer une idée, pour
soi-disant aider, importer un système politique autre, à savoir le nôtre, notre adhésion à
ce système venant du fait que, de toute apparence, les pays démocrates ne se font pas
la guerre, ou très rarement. La question est donc : Est-ce qu’au nom de la paix et de la d’autres images nous renvoient bientôt, la démocratie semble réduite à des opérations
démocratie, on peut s’ingérer dans la politique d’autrui ? de conquête ou d’exportation, confrontée aux déserts : en Syrie, en Afghanistan, en
Libye… De quelle démocratie parle-t-on ? D’espaces désertés par les citoyens ? De
Étienne Tassin : Pour enchaîner sur ces observations, et en particulier concernant cette pre- territoires prétendument menacés par l’islam ?
mière image d’Athènes, il est juste de reconnaître que toute l’affaire démocratique
commence à Athènes au ve siècle avant notre ère. Or ce n’est pas l’Agora, la Pnyx D. A. : Un autre avatar de cette démocratie est illustré dans cette image où l’on voit le peuple
ou une autre institution fondatrice de la démocratie qui nous est présentée dans ce qui manifeste à Athènes, pays démocratique, se soulevant contre le gouvernement qu’il
choix de photographies, mais le temple de Zeus, à savoir un lieu de prière, de litur- a lui-même élu. Le peuple a porté au pouvoir un gouvernement supposé agir pour son
gie. Ce recueil s’ouvre donc par un décalage évident : d’un côté, on rappelle que tout bien, or celui-ci œuvre au sein d’un système – européen et international – où il n’est
commence à Athènes, mais le regard déjà se porte sur autre chose, loin du politique, pas libre de ses choix. C’est une démocratie construite comme un système de poupées
vers le religieux. Dans un certain nombre de photos présentées ici, la question du russes.
religieux émerge subrepticement, comme si elle était à la fois sollicitée et mise en ten-
É. T. : La question qui se pose est donc : Où est la démocratie aujourd’hui ? Est-ce un système
sion avec l’affirmation de la question démocratique. Mais aussitôt, un autre décalage
institutionnel qui régit à la fois les États et l’Union européenne tout en imposant aux so-
nous frappe également. Le concept de démocratie à Athènes convoque à la fois le
ciétés des normes économiques contraignantes ? Dans les rues d’Athènes, le peuple
« demos », le peuple, à qui l’on confie le « kratos », le soin d’exercer le pouvoir, et la
s’insurge parce qu’il est dépossédé de son « kratos », ce qui se joue là est exactement
notion d’égalité, condition première pour l’exercice du pouvoir par le peuple. Or ici, dans
le contraire de ce qui fut inventé il y a 2 500 ans dans l’Athènes antique. On est certes
ces images, ce qui m’interroge et me rend, dans un premier temps, sceptique, c’est
encore dans un système démocratique si on le considère abstraitement, à l’échelle
l’absence du peuple. Le peuple manque, sauf dans deux photographies : il est présent
supranationale, mais ce système est totalement déconnecté des lieux qui virent surgir
sur la place Tahrir et dans une rue d’Athènes. Mais c’est alors une masse indistincte,
le principe politique de la démocratie. Je suis particulièrement troublé par l’absence de
dont on ne perçoit pas la dimension active ou insurrectionnelle tant l’éloignement du
ces lieux proprement politiques à forte charge symbolique, à l’exception de cette rue
point de vue le rend difficile de l’appréhender. En revanche, on voit des lieux vides, de
d’Athènes et de la place Tahrir, au Caire.
grands espaces géométriques et déserts qui nous renvoient à la question : qu’est-ce
Ce travail photographique laisse entendre qu’il y aurait plusieurs manières d’appréhen-
qu’une démocratie sans peuple, ou dans laquelle le peuple est fantomatique ? On ne
der la démocratie. C’est d’abord un régime dans lequel le peuple conserve le droit et
peut s’empêcher de se demander pourquoi le photographe a préféré montrer une abs-
la possibilité de s’insurger, même s’il a désigné ses gouvernants, ainsi que le font les
traction géométrique, des espaces désertés et ordonnés géométriquement, plutôt que
Grecs soumis aux impératifs de l’Union européenne. C’est aussi un régime assurant le
les images de peuples saisis en train d’agir démocratiquement : délibérer, manifester,
pluripartisme, la liberté d’expression, le respect des droits de chacun garantis par une
protester, voter, etc. Nous avons là une démocratie sans peuple, saisie à l’échelle du
constitution. Cette idée de la démocratie est celle que l’on veut exporter en Iran, en
monde, loin des sociétés politiquement animées auxquelles nous sommes accoutumés
Irak… Mais cette conception-là passe par la médiation militaire, comme le suggèrent
en Europe. Et le peuple a disparu : à sa place, des soldats ou quelques figures indivi-
certaines photos. C’est alors une démocratie imposée de manière anti-démocratique ;
duelles qui n’évoquent pas d’emblée une pensée de la démocratie. Avec le religieux,
la démocratie contredite par ceux qui veulent en faire le commerce.
annoncé dès le départ, la quasi-absence d’un peuple agissant, et la guerre à laquelleD. A. : Oui, on est alors davantage dans une démocratie économique. imaginer ce qui se passe dans sa tête. Et même si on perçoit de l’émotion, la géométrie
de la composition permet de passer visuellement d’une photo à l’autre. Celle-ci conduit
É. T. : Je ne sais pas si l’on peut l’appeler ainsi… « démocratie économique ». Les sociétés notre regard et nous pousse à réfléchir sur des figures qui reviennent. Ce cheminement
XVIII XIX
libérales, en effet, ne sont pas démocratiques du seul fait d’être libérales. Finalement, nous conduit à repenser la société et le monde actuel, celui que nous construisons
ces images montrent-elles les dérives d’une société libérale ou bien quelque chose lié chaque jour.
à l’essence même de l’expérience démocratique ? La photo du travailleur afghan montre un homme dans une cantine en Afghanistan,
Anaïs Feyeux : En tant qu’historienne de l’art, ce qui m’interpelle est surtout la représentation mais il pourrait tout aussi bien se trouver aux États-Unis. Cette image illustre la question
de cette dichotomie entre d’un côté, un peuple qui s’insurge, et de l’autre, un régime et de l’intervention dans un pays étranger et du supposé droit à imposer une culture com-
ses institutions. Cette dualité existe depuis la Révolution française, comme le montre plètement distincte, un système politique qui fonctionne chez nous le mieux possible,
l’iconographie de cette époque. Dès le début de la Révolution française, des figures ar- mais jamais parfaitement. Du point de vue de cette personne, qu’est-ce que cela veut
chitecturales idéalisées aux lignes géométriques ponctuent l’iconographie, et ce avant dire d’être jeté dans une culture totalement différente ? Ce qui donne sa force à cette
même que vienne l’insurrection du peuple. Ces figures géométriques d’un monde idéal image, c’est qu’elle laisse transparaître le décalage entre les deux cultures.
constituent le socle d’une nouvelle société à venir. Le peuple vient répandre le désordre A. F. : En même temps, cette idée de la guerre dans l’espace démocratique est historiquement
et s’insurger dans cette organisation idéale de la démocratie telle qu’elle fut pensée permanente. Athènes était constamment en guerre, il y a eu des guerres d’expansions
sous l’Ancien Régime. Il met à mal cette vision idéalisée. Jean Starobinski explique durant la Révolution française, puis les guerres napoléoniennes… Finalement l’espace
que ces visions utopiques de la démocratie, notamment dans l’architecture, avec cette démocratique n’est pas un espace en paix. Affirmer le contraire constituerait un men-
géométrisation parfaite qu’on trouve chez Boullée ou Ledoux, étaient nécessaires sous songe et un déni. Les États-Unis ont une histoire émaillée de conflits, la France aussi.
l’Ancien Régime lorsque la démocratie n’existait pas encore mais qu’à partir du moment
où émerge la Révolution française, ces représentations d’un monde parfait deviennent D. A. : Oui, mais les démocraties sont rarement en guerre entre elles. Généralement, une dé-
désuètes. La Révolution française a peu, voire pas, construit de projets architecturaux mocratie entre en guerre contre un régime qui n’en est pas une. On peut dire qu’entrer
utopistes. Ces derniers ont été imaginés bien avant l’apparition d’une société démocra- en guerre pour défendre une idée n’est pas justifié et qu’historiquement, les systèmes
tique en France. Aussi il n’y a pas pour moi, dans ce livre, de division consommée entre démocratiques imposent la paix entre eux.
le peuple et les institutions. L’ouvrage soulignerait plutôt la coexistence d’une vision
idéalisée et fantasmée issue des temps où la démocratie n’existait pas encore, et sa É. T. : Selon une vielle idée défendue par Kant, si l’on veut la paix dans le monde, il faut avoir
réalité plus ordinaire, voire vulgaire. des républiques. Pour lui, seuls les monarchies et les régimes despotiques se font la
guerre. Toutefois, l’histoire du xxe siècle nous montre que c’est loin d’être exact. En
D. A. : Sous Mussolini et Hitler, l’architecture était ordonnée, d’une géométrie toute néoclas- effet, les deux guerres mondiales ont terriblement marqué l’histoire de l’humanité, et
sique, contrairement au désordre que la démocratie engendre… elles furent le fait de sociétés qu’on dit démocratiques. Aussi, d’affirmer que « les dé-
mocraties ne se font pas la guerre entre elles » n’est devenu vrai qu’après la Seconde
É. T. : C’est vrai qu’une géométrie implicite sous-tend des formes démocratiques. Au ve siècle Guerre mondiale, en tout cas sur le continent européen, à la suite de la création de
avant notre ère, trois figures géométriques s’imposent. La place de l’agora qui est un l’Union européenne. Avec la communauté européenne s’est engagée une aventure
rectangle d’à peu près 100 mètres sur 70 mètres, espace sur lequel vont se jouer commune entre des états démocratiques qui ne voulaient plus connaître la guerre, met-
les échanges démocratiques. Il y a ensuite l’hémicycle de l’amphithéâtre, celui de la tant en place un dispositif institutionnel destiné à garantir la paix entre ses membres.
Pnyx, où s’effectue la prise en main du « kratos » par le « demos ». Il y a enfin le Cela n’a pourtant pas empêché la guerre de Bosnie-Herzégovine entre 1992 et 1995.
cercle qui sous-tend, comme l’ont montré Pierre Lévèque et Pierre Vidal-Naquet, ou Et c’est également au nom de la démocratie que les États-Unis entrent en guerre dans
encore Jean-Pierre Vernant, l’imaginaire de l’égalité démocratique. Le cercle est la le monde. C’est en son nom qu’on force des hommes à s’intégrer dans une culture et
figure géométrique dont tous les points de la périphérie sont à égale distance du centre. une tradition qui leur sont totalement étrangères. En son nom que sont imposées les
Il symbolise l’égalité des citoyens qui sont tous dans le même rapport au pouvoir. On normes et les règles de la société occidentale telles qu’elles sont défendues et portées
retrouve ces figures géométriques dans l’architecture et les espaces urbains, de même haut par les États-Unis. Nous sommes dans cet univers-là : l’homme déjeune sur le
que dans la représentation picturale de peuples engagés sur la voie de la démocratie. drapeau américain.
Dans les photos de Baptiste Giroudon, la forme géométrique semble dissociée de ce
qui est supposé l’investir, à savoir le peuple. À la place, on trouve quelques soldats, D. A. : Une proposition de société telle que celle de Christiania au Danemark constituerait-elle
un cuisinier, un homme masqué, des touristes, puis l’hémicycle vide. Finalement, ces une réponse ? Une société autogérée et libertaire qui serait comme une soupape de
espaces sont-ils vides parce que le peuple va arriver d’un instant à l’autre ou parce que démocratie…
le peuple est parti ? Ou bien encore parce qu’il n’y a plus de peuple ?
É. T. : C’est une des réponses apportées dans les années soixante-dix. Cette photo est in-
D. A. : Pour moi, la photographie est un médium, pas une science. C’est un art, imparfait par téressante parce qu’au lieu de nous montrer l’intérieur de la cité de Christiania et son
nature. Une certaine photographie classique a pour vocation de portraiturer. Mais, ici, fonctionnement, et ainsi ce qui porterait les traces explicites d’une expérience démo-
dans ces images, Baptiste parle indirectement de nous tous. Il n’est pas nécessaire cratique de plus de quarante ans, on aperçoit un lac, des maisons au loin, dans une
de distinguer des personnages, chaque photo suggérant une réalité et suivant un fil atmosphère hivernale… Soit tout sauf la représentation de l’idée de la démocratie.
directeur très fort. Quand Baptiste nous montre un soldat après un combat, on peut Comme d’ailleurs, dans l’ensemble, les photos de ce livre nous disent : «Vous regardezquelque chose qui a à voir avec la démocratie ». Mais de quoi s’agit-il ? Nous sommes
amenés en permanence à reconstruire, à réfléchir, à s’interroger.
XX A. F. : Je suis d’accord, mais ces personnages dont nous parlions auparavant sont aussi des XXI
acteurs de la démocratie. Nous avons l’impression que le soldat, parce qu’il est soldat,
sortirait du cercle de la démocratie. Or le photographier ainsi lui rend son rôle au sein
de la démocratie. De même, cet endroit isolé au Danemark, presque abandonné et
hors du temps, donne une image beaucoup plus prosaïque de ce qu’est la démocratie
dans le monde actuel.
É. T. : Quand on regarde ce livre, on est frappé par une question étrange, qui revient de
manière récurrente : En nous montrant ces images, qu’est-ce que le photographe ne
montre pas ? On pourrait dire que c’est le hors champs, le hors-cadre. Mais en réalité
ce qu’elles ne montrent pas ce sont les représentations attendues de manifestations,
de séances au parlement, de conflits sociaux… La force de cette séquence de photos
est peut-être aussi de savoir dérouter l’esprit de celui qui regarde. On attend quelque
chose et c’est autre chose qui apparaît ; l’esprit se demande ce qu’il voit et s’interroge
sur ce qu’il ne voit pas. Square, Circle, Globe, Rectangle. Print on multiple paper. 200x294cm
D. A. : En même temps, à photographier la démocratie de trop près, on manquerait de recul.
Ici, il est tel que l’on plane au-dessus des soubresauts de l’Histoire. Des soubresauts
A. F. : Pourtant très peu des images reproduites ici ont été publiées dans la presse, aus-
qui sont suggérés au travers des lieux, des personnes ici photographiées, qui consti-
si me font-elles davantage penser à une certaine forme documentaire de la fin des
tuent autant de pistes d’interrogation. Sur cette photo, Christiania apparaît bien triste,
années 1980-début 1990. Plutôt que de tendre vers une simple critique des médias,
un îlot de démocratie un peu oublié…
ces images montraient que l’on pouvait photographier les événements politiques au-
A. F. : Je ne vois pas le livre de cette façon-là. Les premières photos présentent les lieux de trement. Les révolutions du Printemps arabe, les événements en Afghanistan ou en
la démocratie, avec des espaces vides, et puis viennent cinq ou six images comme Libye, sont ici aussi appréhendés de manière différente quand bien même il s’agisse
celle de Calais, ou bien celles prises en Afghanistan et en Libye, où l’on nous donne à toujours de théâtre de guerre. La pratique traditionnelle du reportage publié dans la
voir des architectures créées ou détruites par la démocratie. On a ensuite davantage presse est abandonnée au profit d’une démarche et d’un regard qui se rapprochent
de portraits. Donc, dans la seconde partie de l’ouvrage, une place plus importante est plus du travail d’un photographe comme Luc Delahaye. Les mêmes événements sont
laissée à la présence humaine : les acteurs de la démocratie sont montrés quand nous saisis, mais un photographe de presse irait davantage dans l’émotion pour avoir une
attendrions plutôt des foules. Il n’y a, de fait, que deux images de foule. Sur les autres photographie facilement lisible et, parfois, compassionnelle. Or cette photographie
images ce sont des personnes isolées. C’est étonnant car la démocratie se forge sur (place Tahrir) est assez symptomatique : prise de très loin, le photographe se met hors
la mythologie d’un destin commun, produit ensemble, où l’on ne peut être seul. Enfin, de l’événement et hors de ce qui est en train de se passer. Cela n’est pas du tout re-
la fin du livre nous met face à une forme de tourisme de la démocratie, avec un certain présentatif d’une image de presse. Nous nous attendrions à ce qu’il se place au milieu
voyeurisme. Je ne pense pas que l’on s’éloigne de l’humain. Par exemple, dans l’image de la manifestation, qu’il photographierait de très près afin de capter les visages, les
de Calais, la personne est là, perdue dans le paysage, mais bien présente face à nous. expressions. Au contraire ici, la photographie est très construite, prise avec distance. Il
nous est impossible de distinguer qui sont ces personnes. Est-ce une manifestation pro
D. A. : En effet, dans toutes ces images, une distance est maintenue, c’est une overview de ce ou anti-démocratie ? L’absence de lisibilité directe de cette image va à l’encontre de la
qu’il se passe dans le monde : l’humain est là, mais dépossédé face à la marche des évé- photographie de presse…
nements. Il n’est qu’une petite pièce de ce puzzle mondial, seul face à la formidable ma-
chine du temps qui oublie et ingère. On a alors oublié ce qu’est la démocratie. Elle n’est D. A. : Oui, mais ça reste une photographie documentaire. Baptiste photographie la réalité
plus un idéal national, elle est passée au niveau de l’international. Elle est un concept au avec une distance qui nous suggère des pistes de réflexion au lieu de nous dire ce
nom duquel on part en guerre. Nous en sommes dépossédés sauf à habiter dans une qu’on doit penser. Le photographe américain Garry Winogrand disait que « la photogra-
toute petite communauté comme Christiania. On est dépossédé de notre pouvoir d’action. phie, c’est aussi la manière dont la chose photographiée est transformée par le simple
Ce travail n’est certainement pas de la photographie de presse, mais à ce sujet, je fait d’avoir été photographiée ». Toutes ces images questionnent notre regard sur les
pense que, dans le journalisme, nous avons encore des cartes à jouer. C’est un outil choses. Ce qui m’attire d’autant plus dans ce travail, c’est qu’à regarder les photos les
indispensable à la démocratie, elle permet un autre regard, l’expression des opinions unes après les autres, le fil conducteur suggéré est absolument homogène dans sa
diverses, ou de révéler une certaine réalité. Le photojournalisme, activité qu’exerce distance par rapport au sujet.
Baptiste, permet de couvrir des conflits et de montrer des événements. C’est un formi-
É. T. : Les images publiées ici relèvent à la fois d’une forme d’abstraction et d’une forme d’esthé-
dable médium pour exposer, dévoiler, qui répond à un devoir d’information inhérent à
tisation. À l’instar du texte d’Étienne Vacherot qui ouvre ce livre et qui distingue la vérité
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